Mesh Gear: An analysis

[kzlr]

I did not want to hijack the previous thread on the value of Mesh gear, so I am starting one which I hope many of you in the warmer months will find useful.
I took quotes from each of the posters who commented on the previous mesh thread and looked up what each of them were wearing by brand name. Before we begin the analysis, we must first set forth some objective truths about the terminology we will be using.
1. Seam strength: Only as strong as your weakest link. I can bolt steel to plastic, but in the end, the plastic will fail. Stitching 1800 cordura nylon to 500 cordura nylon will only be effective as long as the 500 cordura nylon stays put. Advertising "patches" of 2000 denier cordura attached to 500 denier cordura makes no sense, because your 2000 denier cordura will tear away from the 500.
2. When it comes to nylon, only those makes (cordura, dynatech, hitena, or carbolex...all of which are trade names) with a sturdiness (Denier) of 600 or above are suitable.
3. Poly-anything (no matter what name they give it for marketing purposes) is junk-plastic! It will melt into your skin after only a few feet of sliding on asphalt. Poly-coated anything is no good either, as it too will melt.
4. For sliding, nothing beats leather...but leather degrades each time it gets wet. This includes sweat from the INSIDE of the material. Leather is also not machine washable.
5. When you hit the asphalt, only four things matter:
- Ability to absorb impact (think armor...and that is a WHOLE other topic)
- Sturdiness of materials
- The materials "willingness" to slide as opposed to catching on the asphalt and turning you into a gymnast at 40 mph.
- Seam strength to keep garment together and in appropriate position relative to your body.

So...without further delay, here is a summary analysis of all the brands and materials mentioned by you, the riders.

1. “I use Joe Rocket mesh for summer, and a JR textile for winter...”

Combined High Tenacity Mesh and Hitena™ Nylon Shell
Hitena is 600D Nylon, the minimum acceptable sturdiness.

2. “I have a Joe Rocket 5.0 jacket with the inner lining, and plenty of protective pads.”

Free-air™ poly/mesh shell (Pheonix 5.0)
Free-air poly/mesh shell is 300 D Nylon...1/2 the minimum acceptable standard!

3. “Great!! I just spent $140 on a tourmaster intake mesh jacket.”

Armor-Link Mesh material and 600 Denier Carbolex® combine with 1680 Denier Ballistic Polyester in the impact areas creating a well-ventilated garment that provides exceptional protection.

Carbolex is a trade-industry name for Nylon. 600 D Nylon

Ballistic Polyester - Basically plastic, which as a rule is NOT as strong as Nylon of the same Denier (D) 1680 Polyester is weaker than 1680 Nylon.
The very use of the word “ballistic” is deceptive. Initially used with Nylon for military (ballistic) flak jackets, ballistic Nylon was later replaced with Kevlar. Polyester was never used by the military, or anyone else for “ballistic” applications.

This 1680 poly is plastic which is not as strong as the 600 nylon, despite it's larger number. Additionally, it will either melt, or tear at the seams in a slide, or the initial impact.

4. “Looking at going to FirstGear for my touring jacket, and getting full textile.”

New for 2008, the Torrent is an all-conditions riding jacket. Constructed with a polyester mesh outer shell.
No Denier number is mentioned, but the Polyester material is NOT an encouraging start.

5. “thanks wholly to her wearing a Joe Rocket Phoenix mesh jacket.”

See #2 above

6. “Oh, I have not tested my FG HT Air Pants or Killi Air Jacket, but they are a much tighter weave than the JR Phoenix and would probably perform differently.”

First Gear HT Air Pants and Kilimanjaro Air Jacket are both 330 Denier Nylon - 60% of the minimum standard for material sturdiness.

7. “My gal and I both wear fieldsheer mesh jackets.”

According to Fieldsheer’s own web-site, Carbolex has 1/4 the abrasion resistance of leather. No information about seam tear strength was given. No material will help you in a slide if it has torn at the seams, separated, and exposed your skin.

8. “I wear a Tour Master Transition II jacket”

The three quarter length 600 denier Carbolex® and 600 denier ballistic polyester shell incorporates reflective Phoslite® material panels for strength and increased nighttime visibility.

See notes above

9. “Maybe I feel better, because my mesh jacket is Hein Gericke”

Water resistant 330 Denier nylon shell

10. “I use the Motoport Kevlar MESH and I would pit it against any textile or leather.”

Motoport Mesh Kevlar has a tear (seam) strength of 1260 pounds to failure. New Competition grade (1.2-1.5mm)Leather is about 110 pounds.
Air Mesh Kevlar has roughly 60% of the abrasion resistance of racing leathers (more than double what the Carbolex offers), and unlike the other mesh materials, will not tear at impact and is machine washable.

11. “It was replaced by a Cortech GS-Air”

I was only able to find the Cortech GX-Air, no info on the GS-Air

12. “I have a (Aerostich) roadcrafter suit”

Waterproof and Windproof 500 Denier Cordura® GORE-TEX® Fabric
1050 Denier Nylon Ballistics at Shoulder, Elbow, Forearm, Knee, and Shin.

Again, the "reinforced" areas will tear away from the 500 denier when you hit the asphalt.

13. “I got a Tourmaster Flex 2 jacket and Flex pants to wear this time around.”

Converts easily from a 600 Denier Carbolex® shell to an Armor-Link Mesh shell and vice-versa.
600 Denier is again, the mimimum.

14. “Halvarssons is way too hard to get”

I was unable to find any specifics about the Halvarsson materials.
“Hi-Art” is all I was able to find...some form of cordura nylon, I believe.

15. “I like my Olympic one piece mesh suit”
Did you mean Olympia?
Here is the information on their one piece suit.
Outer shell constructed in 500 denier Dupont Cordura® with ballistic airflow mesh panels.
Again, below the minimum standards.

Hope this information helps.

[brymway]

Nice. Nothing like the facts to end a good arguement. It'll be interesting to see how this goes. Is is ok to link these for info? Don't wanna hijack. Excellent thread!

motoport review
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80138

Halvarsson review
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207629

[brymway]

lll

[brymway]

I seem to be suffering from some post-al ignorance here. Please disregard

[Tumbleweed]

Interesting, What is your point?

I would like to know on what reference your 'objective truths' are based.

No one here is claiming Mesh is anywhere near as protective as leather (expect maybe the kevlar mesh crowd).

I also don't understand the tearing away you are referring too. 2000 denier does not tear away from 500 typically. I haven't seen that many damaged goods, but the seam technology is better than you are giving it credit.

Only one thing matters when you get on the bike, did you gear up or not?

I do the best I can to keep from testing my gear, other than how many miles it takes to wear through the seat area.

TW

[brymway]

Interesting, What is your point?

I think he's listing a large amount of info in one spot for the one who wants to compare different companies material and claims.

[kzlr]

Originally Posted by Tumbleweed

Interesting, What is your point?

I would like to know on what reference your 'objective truths' are based.

No one here is claiming Mesh is anywhere near as protective as leather (expect maybe the kevlar mesh crowd).

I also don't understand the tearing away you are referring too. 2000 denier does not tear away from 500 typically. I haven't seen that many damaged goods, but the seam technology is better than you are giving it credit.

Only one thing matters when you get on the bike, did you gear up or not?

I do the best I can to keep from testing my gear, other than how many miles it takes to wear through the seat area.

TW

TW,

Glad you found it interesting. My point was (is) that there are a lot of people shopping for mesh gear right now (temps are rising) and not all mesh products are equal. In fact, the material that they are made from is what matters, and some companies are intentionally misrepresenting the protective nature of their product to the public by giving their material a name like "ballistic" when it is nothing more than thick plastic.
People have accidents, and when they do, what they are wearing is going to be the difference between walking away and being carried away in some instances.
If you were to ask anyone who knows the properties of cordura nylon, they will tell you that the larger the number, the thicker (sturdier) the fibers (abrasion resistance), the stronger the seam strength will be (tear strength), and the more friction it can endure before either transferring that heat energy to your skin, or melting into your skin.
The tearing away issue comes from attaching a strong, sturdy (1000+denier) cordura to a weaker one (500 denier or less, for example). When two fabrics are somehow attached (usually stitched), the strength of that bond is not only in the material used to stitch the two fabrics together, but also in the strength of the two fabrics themselves. One advantage that mesh kevlar has is that the seams can be stitched together using a much stronger/heavier stitching than even leather could handle. But...to stay on topic, the 500 will literally tear where the stitching is, thus separating the good stuff (1000+) from where it should be on the garment. Finally, when 175 lb rider hits the asphalt at 30 mph, well...F=MA. A lot of force to stress the seams/stitching/300 Denier nylon.

[WreckZ]

Originally Posted by kzlr

12. “I have a (Aerostich) roadcrafter suit”

Waterproof and Windproof 500 Denier Cordura® GORE-TEX® Fabric
1050 Denier Nylon Ballistics at Shoulder, Elbow, Forearm, Knee, and Shin.

Again, the "reinforced" areas will tear away from the 500 denier when you hit the asphalt.

I must respectfully disagree with this statement, as well as the one about the HT Overpants.

If you do a search on MANY other rider boards, that the aerostich is a HIGHLY regarded suit in the form of crash protection.
(Tested by numberous better men and women than me, in more than a multitude of ways.)

And, unfortunately, I have CRASH! tested the HT's in a relatively low speed low side, with no detrimental effects on the overpants, or me.

Your thesis and points sound valid in writing, but simply do not hold water when the 'Suit meets the asphalt'.

[kzlr]

Originally Posted by WreckZ

I must respectfully disagree with this statement, as well as the one about the HT Overpants.

If you do a search on MANY other rider boards, that the aerostich is a HIGHLY regarded suit in the form of crash protection.
(Tested by numberous better men and women than me, in more than a multitude of ways.)

And, unfortunately, I have CRASH! tested the HT's in a relatively low speed low side, with no detrimental effects on the overpants, or me.

Your thesis and points sound valid in writing, but simply do not hold water when the 'Suit meets the asphalt'.

I am sure you have read this, but perhaps some reading here have not. Motoport v. Aerostich
http://www.webbikeworld.com/r3/motoport/

To be fair, the Aerostich Roadcrafter is technically not even mesh...I just included it because it was mentioned in the previous "mesh" thread. I don't want people spending $100-$300 on breathable materials with fancy names (like the titanium whatever in that article I am linking you to above) that are nothing more than plastic. If you want breathable, go with shorts and a T-shirt. If you want breathable protection that will save your skin, get Motoport. Nothing else compares on paper or asphalt. The vast majority of "breathable" materials out there are a waste of money and will not protect the rider NEARLY as well as they are expecting to be protected when they buy the product.
BTW, in the majority of motorcycle crashes, the lower extremities suffer more trauma from the impact/slide than the torso. Don't neglect the pants!
I want to be fair here and tell you all that I own Motoport Air Mesh gear...but they took my money; I am not getting any of theirs! I just spent hundreds of hours doing this research and now that I have my gear, the knowledge is worthless unless passed on to others.
I hope this helps you all make well informed decisions about your gear this summer.

[AZ Jerry]

Your hundreds of hours of research would be a little more beneficial if you would reference some reliable sources for your information. The fear of materials melting into the skin is overstated IMHO. It certainly is possible but highly unlikely. The abrasion resistance of the various materials is good to know but it is difficult to find out what all those trade names really are.

I don't like anecdotal information on this kind of stuff but I will use some anyway. I have seen two riders go down at well over 30mph in what would be regarded as cheaper mesh gear. Both walked away with no tear through anywhere in their jackets or pants, no melting of fabric into the skin, no significant injuries of any kind. One continued riding the same day, the other had to wait because his bike was totalled but he was fine.

Until the magazines do some serious gear testing, (instead of telling us how it looks, how many pockets it has, or what color it comes in) we are dependent on each other's experiences or the marketing spin of the various manufacturers. I know that leather, kevlar and cordura are the leaders in the abrasion resistance game. But that doesn't mean that other materials won't offer adequate protection in the scenarios that are most likely to occur, i.e. low speed accidents.

But thanks for posting the info anyway. At least something to think about.

[michaeln]

Originally Posted by kzlr

I want to be fair here and tell you all that I own Motoport Air Mesh gear

I knew this when I read your first post. It's always easy to spot one of Wayne's Disciples.

[Diggler]

I don't think that it's a given that a lesser-denier fabric will tear away from a higher-denier fabric at that specific point unless it was improperly engineered. Failure depends on the stresses placed on it. If you put it on a machine that pulls the fabric straight apart, then sure, it will fail either at the lesser fabric or at the seam. But that's not indicative of a crash.

The sturdier areas are there because they're statistically high-stress areas. The lesser-strength areas are placed where they're not as likely to fail.

If there were such a thing as a 100 point abrasion scale (how much danger an area is in due to abrasion), I'd expect knees/elbows/shoulders/etc. to be, oh, maybe an '80'. Biceps, chest, thighs, maybe '40'. Inside of the arms/legs, etc., maybe a 10.

So if you're willing to trade off security for comfort, you'd want the higher areas covered with a tougher material, and go with the lighter, more breathable fabric where you're statistically not as likely to need the heavier protection.

The problem of tearing away would only occur if manufacturers made the heavier weight material patch smaller than the actual high-abrasion-risk area on the garment.

[kzlr]

Originally Posted by michaeln

I knew this when I read your first post. It's always easy to spot one of Wayne's Disciples.

I'll try to be clear on this:
Facts gathered were gathered outside of any knowledge of Wayne. Fieldsheer posts abrasion/tear results on their website, so does motoport. So did the Halvarsson's site (although I am unable to locate that information now.) They all agree on the facts which I stated in my opening post (except the minimum denier.) I have found though, that when websites actually use 500 denier cordura, they advertise it as their "premier" product, and usually charge close to double what they charge for their "300 denier ballistic Nylon." Why is that? It is because it is better...
From Aerostich's website:
Darien Light Pant:
"160 denier Cordura Gore Tex fabric. Although it offers less crash and abrasion resistance, it s so much lighter that it s great for camping, skiing, touring, commuting, and general wear." $287.00

Roadcrafter Pant:
All of the Roadcrafter garments feature: • Waterproof and Windproof 500 Denier Cordura® GORE-TEX® Fabric
• A Multitude of Storage Pockets
• Underarm and Back Vent Zippers for Comfort in all Temperatures
• 1050 Denier Nylon Ballistics at Shoulder, Elbow, Forearm, Knee, and Shin
$427.00
At least Aerostich is honest about abrasion and denier.

My two main points are these:
1. NOT ALL MESH IS CREATED EQUAL!
2. The price difference is NOT that substantial. (200 vs. 400 = what is your skin worth?)

If doing all the research myself, plus reading most of the Adv.rider/pashnit/klr650.net posts on mesh gear and Wayne's product, plus grilling Wayne on the phone (which he surprisingly endured) for half an hour, plus reading information from various garment/fabric manufacturers websites (including some Keprotech by Schoeller sites in German!), plus listening to firefighters/EMTs talk about what summer means to them in terms of motorcycle crash triage, plus guys who actually race bikes at Laguna Seca, plus the fact that motoport makes the only non-leather suit approved by AMA for racing, (not Joe Rocket, not Aero, not Olympia, not...)plus my own God given intellect and decision making skills makes me "one of Wayne's disciples..."
Then, you got me.
Better materials (500 vs. 300) = higher cost.
Best materials (mesh Kevlar) = highest cost.
Also fair to mention I was seriously considering Vanson's leathers.
http://www.vansonleathers.com/detail.aspx?ID=452
Finally, Vanson also uses Cordura Nylon in some of their products...but it's all 1000 denier. Wonder why that is? Check the links below:
http://www.vansonleathers.com/obsole...ventilator.htm
http://www.vansonleathers.com/produc...rd.html#Jacket

Hope this helps,

Vanson Disciple.

[Tumbleweed]

Originally Posted by kzlr

....... If you want breathable, go with shorts and a T-shirt. If you want breathable protection that will save your skin, get Motoport. Nothing else compares on paper or asphalt. .....

Ah, there it is.

Point taken. I'll stick to my First Gear kit for now but will agree the Motoport stuff is nice.

again, Mesh is not leather but I can't wear Leather in a heat indexed environment of 110 with 98% humidity. I probably shouldn't even be riding, but I do.

TW

[michaeln]

I have Motoport Stretch Kevlar pants, and I like them a lot. I also bought the Kevlar Mesh jacket and hated it, sent it back for a refund. The workmanship was sloppy, it was horrendously stiff, scratchy and uncomfortable, and easily the ugliest garment I have ever seen.