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Old 09-19-2012, 07:27 PM   #161
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhousedoug View Post
I talked to Wyman today and we pulled the valve cover, and yes the valves are fried, which sucks, wish I'd spent time on the threads before my trip.... never had a newer bike that burned oil so fast but I guess I'd should have been more vigilante and been checking often.... an expensive lesson to be sure, anyway planning to get it sorted this weekend with a new head and kit..... thanks to Wyman for being so helpful and knowledgable
Was afraid of that...Wyman's sig line says it all
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:46 PM   #162
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

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Originally Posted by Oldhousedoug View Post
I talked to Wyman today and we pulled the valve cover, and yes the valves are fried, which sucks, wish I'd spent time on the threads before my trip.... never had a newer bike that burned oil so fast but I guess I'd should have been more vigilante and been checking often.... an expensive lesson to be sure, anyway planning to get it sorted this weekend with a new head and kit..... thanks to Wyman for being so helpful and knowledgable
it will all be better on Sunday....
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CHECK YOUR OIL AT EVERY FUEL STOP!!!
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Old 09-19-2012, 08:15 PM   #163
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

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Originally Posted by wymanwinn View Post
it will all be better on Sunday....
Like Allstate, you're in good hands
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Old 03-07-2015, 02:42 PM   #164
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

One exception to the Wyman rule.

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Old 09-03-2016, 12:58 AM   #165
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

WOW maybe it is my age since the mid to late 60's Motorcycles not including Harley Davidson's lol would use oil it was normal procedure to constantly check oil levels.

And with Our little wheezer Thumper KLR650's with a sight glass there is no reason not to check the oil. Heck I have found myself checking the oil after just leaving an establishment only 10 Mi away knowing I checking the oil level before I even left home lol. And yes I am one of those odd people that you may find oil dripping off of my bike in places as I tend to oil and grease moving points. Even foot peg studs lol.

But I am not as bad as I used to be. In the days before O ring drive chains I would usually keep two chains if I was able. One would be cleaned and soaking on gear oil until my next oil change and then I would swap chains. And yes I learned that was a bit over kill lol.

That reminds me how many of you have ridden by or had go by you on one of these new whiz bang sport bikes and hear there pore drive chains squeaking as they go by lol? Almost makes you wish to grab a can of WD or something and ride next to them just to spray it on the chain lol.

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Old 09-03-2016, 11:16 AM   #166
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

It's good to keep this important thread alive.

It's also kinda sad to see how many old forum members have faded away.....including the BMW riding Wyman......Yes, I know he's still semi-active, but in looking back at some of the old threads it was good to see guys like Wyman and EagleMike hanging out here. Now we're stuck with Chuck B and Tumbleweed <sigh>
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Old 10-23-2017, 05:15 PM   #167
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wymanwinn View Post
NOT my words...wyman
bore is not the problem...OEM rings are....

685 kit uses cast iron rings....they seat better and seal....[/quote]

Is the cylender nickle?

Last edited by wymanwinn; 10-24-2017 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 10-23-2017, 05:26 PM   #168
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

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Originally Posted by TheHank View Post
bore is not the problem...OEM rings are....

685 kit uses cast iron rings....they seat better and seal....
Is the cylender nickle?[/quote]

nope; the bore is an issue too. the reason the 685 kit works is you have a nice new fresh and round, non-tapered bore to start over with. There is a reason that none of Kawi's "just put new/updated rings in" fixes actually worked.

From "elsewhere";

In low mileage engines (Mostly made in 2008 or later) the oil usage is caused by very poor quality machining of the cylinder bore.
The tell tale sign is clearly visible after disassembly and you can probably also diagnose it through the spark plug hole with a good quality boroscope.

The poor machining does not create a conical or oval cylinder which would very likely get picked up in quality control but rather creates an irregular pattern of ridges and depressions where the cylinder surface deviates from the ideal shape. Although these deviations are only in an order of a few microns they still cause excessive ring movement and excessive ring pressure. This results in excessive ring wear and leaves the ridges in the cylinder wall with a polished appearance.

Typically you would see two oval areas with this polished appearance in a high mileage engine. The areas are located halfway down the stroke and face forwards and backwards and would only occur in an engine which is well worn, I would say very well beyond 50,000km.

In case of the KLR oil burner you find an irregular pattern of polished ridges. The ridges run perpendicular to the bore and usually only occupy a sector (a quarter to half) of the cylinder wall, they are some 2cm wide and not located symmetrical or perpendicular to the crank pin. You typically have two or three distinguished ridges over the height of the stroke and in different sectors of the cylinder wall.

The polished ridges will appear after 5,000km or less, together with excessive oil consumption of 1l per 1,000km and more. This oil consumption is NOT related to the KLR's tendency to blow oil out of the crank case breather if you ride it continuously at high revs.

You will not be able to pick up the problem by doing a compression test. The two compression rings of the piston are build much stronger than the delicate side rails of the oil ring. It's the side rails which wear down and allow oil into the combustion chamber.

Why don't you see smoke?
At 5,000rpm your engine burns more than 40 fills per second. Taking (estimated) pumping losses into account you are probably looking at almost 21 litres of air / fuel mix per second. Seventy five thousand litres per hour. And you will have to ride for ten hours to make your 1,000km.
Means you burn one litre of oil in 750 cubic metres of air fuel mix.
You are not going to see that smoke.

How to fix it?
Early attempts by KMSA to sort out the problem were failures since no one seemed to actually look at the problematic cylinders and recognise the problem.
Cylinders were honed, new piston rings were fitted, sometimes the pistons were replaced too.
The effect is zip, after a few thousand kilometres you are back at square one and burning oil.
The reason is the honing tool is a flexible tool and replicates the existing shape of the bore. It only gives the surface a certain and desired amount of roughness and pattern.

There are only two ways to fix the problem: You can replace the cylinder with a good one and fit new piston rings or you can bore the cylinder to oversize and fit an oversize piston and rings.


Dave
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Old 10-23-2017, 07:01 PM   #169
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DPelletier View Post
Is the cylender nickle?
nope; the bore is an issue too. the reason the 685 kit works is you have a nice new fresh and round, non-tapered bore to start over with. There is a reason that none of Kawi's "just put new/updated rings in" fixes actually worked.

From "elsewhere";

In low mileage engines (Mostly made in 2008 or later) the oil usage is caused by very poor quality machining of the cylinder bore.
The tell tale sign is clearly visible after disassembly and you can probably also diagnose it through the spark plug hole with a good quality boroscope.

The poor machining does not create a conical or oval cylinder which would very likely get picked up in quality control but rather creates an irregular pattern of ridges and depressions where the cylinder surface deviates from the ideal shape. Although these deviations are only in an order of a few microns they still cause excessive ring movement and excessive ring pressure. This results in excessive ring wear and leaves the ridges in the cylinder wall with a polished appearance.

Typically you would see two oval areas with this polished appearance in a high mileage engine. The areas are located halfway down the stroke and face forwards and backwards and would only occur in an engine which is well worn, I would say very well beyond 50,000km.

In case of the KLR oil burner you find an irregular pattern of polished ridges. The ridges run perpendicular to the bore and usually only occupy a sector (a quarter to half) of the cylinder wall, they are some 2cm wide and not located symmetrical or perpendicular to the crank pin. You typically have two or three distinguished ridges over the height of the stroke and in different sectors of the cylinder wall.

The polished ridges will appear after 5,000km or less, together with excessive oil consumption of 1l per 1,000km and more. This oil consumption is NOT related to the KLR's tendency to blow oil out of the crank case breather if you ride it continuously at high revs.

You will not be able to pick up the problem by doing a compression test. The two compression rings of the piston are build much stronger than the delicate side rails of the oil ring. It's the side rails which wear down and allow oil into the combustion chamber.

Why don't you see smoke?
At 5,000rpm your engine burns more than 40 fills per second. Taking (estimated) pumping losses into account you are probably looking at almost 21 litres of air / fuel mix per second. Seventy five thousand litres per hour. And you will have to ride for ten hours to make your 1,000km.
Means you burn one litre of oil in 750 cubic metres of air fuel mix.
You are not going to see that smoke.

How to fix it?
Early attempts by KMSA to sort out the problem were failures since no one seemed to actually look at the problematic cylinders and recognise the problem.
Cylinders were honed, new piston rings were fitted, sometimes the pistons were replaced too.
The effect is zip, after a few thousand kilometres you are back at square one and burning oil.
The reason is the honing tool is a flexible tool and replicates the existing shape of the bore. It only gives the surface a certain and desired amount of roughness and pattern.

There are only two ways to fix the problem: You can replace the cylinder with a good one and fit new piston rings or you can bore the cylinder to oversize and fit an oversize piston and rings.


Dave[/quote]

So part of the fix is using cast rings in a cast cylender?
I guess i was under the impression that with a cast cylender a chrome ring is used and in a chrome cylender cast rings are used.
I get the bore part of the fix to straighten poor factory work,just confused by the rings.Keep in mind I'm no expert.
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:55 AM   #170
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

Not sure where you copied the above from - but I think it's from a site with a self appointed guru of all things KLR.

The stock rings are barely almost decent quality. They are sometimes installed wrong. The air can come from the factory almost dry, and let dirt in. There is a LOT of temperature cycling on the Gen2, more than the Gen1. This is because the radiator holds less fluid, and is also capable of shedding heat more quickly (more frontal area and thinner). The coolant enters the cylinder at the same spot, so that one spot gets more thermal cycling than the head, for example. This contributes to the bore going out of round.

I've purchased new cylinder assemblies from Kawasaki. The bore job wasn't bad. IMHO the finish was too fine for the ring package they use. leading to problems unless break-in is done correctly.

They guy that came up with the Thermo-Bob has over 150K miles on the original bore, piston, and rings. IT's a 2004. They changed the rinds and piston in 2008, 2009, and at least one more time since then. The early piston and rings are no longer available from Kawasaki.

Check your oil every time you put gas in the tank.
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:03 AM   #171
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaglemike View Post
Not sure where you copied the above from - but I think it's from a site with a self appointed guru of all things KLR.

The stock rings are barely almost decent quality. They are sometimes installed wrong. The air can come from the factory almost dry, and let dirt in. There is a LOT of temperature cycling on the Gen2, more than the Gen1. This is because the radiator holds less fluid, and is also capable of shedding heat more quickly (more frontal area and thinner). The coolant enters the cylinder at the same spot, so that one spot gets more thermal cycling than the head, for example. This contributes to the bore going out of round.

I've purchased new cylinder assemblies from Kawasaki. The bore job wasn't bad. IMHO the finish was too fine for the ring package they use. leading to problems unless break-in is done correctly.

They guy that came up with the Thermo-Bob has over 150K miles on the original bore, piston, and rings. IT's a 2004. They changed the rinds and piston in 2008, 2009, and at least one more time since then. The early piston and rings are no longer available from Kawasaki.

Check your oil every time you put gas in the tank.
I'm not sure where it came from anymore either, but if it's from where you suggest, I won't be copying it again!

So we know that the early Gen2's have significant piston/ring/bore issues.....we also know that the piston and rings changed as you've noted. Is it your opinion that the Gen1 and Gen2 cylinders/bores are the same (equivalent) and the "out of round" condition is primarily due to the heat cycle issue?

I suppose, at the end of the day, the recommendations are the same; you need to fix the bore problem or you haven't accomplished anything.


Dave
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:19 AM   #172
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DPelletier View Post
I'm not sure where it came from anymore either, but if it's from where you suggest, I won't be copying it again!

So we know that the early Gen2's have significant piston/ring/bore issues.....we also know that the piston and rings changed as you've noted. Is it your opinion that the Gen1 and Gen2 cylinders/bores are the same (equivalent) and the "out of round" condition is primarily due to the heat cycle issue?

I suppose, at the end of the day, the recommendations are the same; you need to fix the bore problem or you haven't accomplished anything.


Dave
Hi Dave,
I think it's a combination of things. Worse in the Gen2 due to thermal cycling, and the ring changes. Far worse in the Gen2 if we look at the numbers of ruined cylinder heads. I see/hear of at least 20X as many Gen2 ruined heads as Gen1 heads. Some of that is due to the Gen1's gradually fading away.

I really don't think there is a problem with the bore - I think one could put a NOS cylinder from a Gen1 on a Gen2 and have the same risk/potential issue as the new 2017 engine. One would have to use the gen2 piston and rings. The rings are not interchangeable, so the pistons are not either. :banghead here:

The bike will run with as little as 700cc of oil in there. This is not good long term for some of the bearings that are splash lubed, especially those high in the case, like the upper rear balancer bearing.
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:22 PM   #173
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

Thanks Mike. I knew the thermal shock issue was worse on the Gen 2 due to the cooling system changes. If the bore isn't/wasn't an issue until the cylinder starts to warp thats a pretty big incentive to get the Thermobob on right away.

Once warped, the horse has left the barn and it's time to bore.


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Old 11-21-2017, 12:47 PM   #174
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

Follow up background. Sometimes life is funny. The guy (SAG=self appointed guru)* went to one of the local Kawasaki dealerships claiming the liners are faulty, bad cast iron, etc. He didn't (and I think still doesn't) own a bore gauge, had done no material testing, but was sure the oil use was due to bad liners. Of course, it didn't matter that the same liner, with a good bore, piston and rings works fine. At one point in the past he'd claimed the oil use was due to bad valve stem seals. The valve stem seals almost never go bad enough to cause oil use, due to the head design.

My personal belief = the term "guru" is often over-used these days, and is never self bestowed.
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:27 PM   #175
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

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Originally Posted by Eaglemike View Post
......My personal belief = the term "guru" is often over-used these days, and is never self bestowed.
EagleMike is a KLR guru.

Note.....Not self-bestowed. Acknowledged by the many who have benefitted from your wisdom.

Further note......One definition of wisdom is the "proper application of knowledge". Facts, stats, figures, etc. are all good fun when playing Trivial Pursuit. Knowing what to do with all that stuff banging around in the gray matter is far more difficult to acquire.
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:28 PM   #176
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!




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Old 11-21-2017, 01:29 PM   #177
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch";1484626][SIZE=&quot View Post
EagleMike is a KLR guru.[/size]

Note.....Not self-bestowed. Acknowledged by the many who have benefitted from your wisdom.

Further note......One definition of wisdom is the "proper application of knowledge". Facts, stats, figures, etc. are all good fun when playing Trivial Pursuit. Knowing what to do with all that stuff banging around in the gray matter is far more difficult to acquire.
Well put and without question.


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Old 11-21-2017, 01:37 PM   #178
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

as an aside; I don't think the info I quoted originally came from the "S.A.G.".....I've known enough to avoid his ramblings for many years now. I wish I remembered the source......which doesn't blame the liners per se...but rather the bore/finish which sounded plausible to me. Obviously there are tons of re-bored stock liners out there with 658/685/692 etc kits and they work great so as you said, it can't be an issue with the liners themselves.

I appreciate the conversation because I really like to understand what's going on though, (as I mentioned earlier) regardless of the reason the bore is bad, the only proper fix remains the same.


Dave
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:34 PM   #179
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Default Re: Enough Is Enough...check Your Oil Level!!!

I appreciate the kind thoughts.

We're all in this together. I learn from people all the time. Paying attention, putting stuff together, keeping a focus when possible, then applying experience and background intel to the situation as we go along our path..............



Oh yeah, remember to check the oil every time we put fuel in the tank!
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