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Old 10-30-2017, 03:00 PM   #41
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by imac611 View Post
Cool, thank you. I may invest in one of those pups. So it's just a locking nut with a rubber seal on the inside? Huh!

I don't know what the heck I did to this nut last time I put it on, but it's way north of 72 ft-lb's. I've been leaning on this pup with an indicated ~150 ft-lbs according to my cheapo beam/needle-style torque wrench. Maybe I put some white lithium grease on it last time I had the sprocket off and it separated.
Some heat on the nut might help. Or you could take the correct socket and ride to a muffler shop and ask them to hit it with an impact wrench.
Make sure it is in neutral so as not to stress the transmission with the impact.

A prevailing torque locking nut has the last few threads formed slightly different than the other threads. This causes it to get tight on the bolt threads once it is well started. They work very well as a countershaft nut and don't require a lot of torque. I just tighten it up to gute-n-snug with the 8" stamped wrench from the stock tool kit.

I wouldn't use my torque wrenches as breaker bars. Too easy to over stress them
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Old 10-30-2017, 03:17 PM   #42
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoMotor View Post
Some heat on the nut might help. Or you could take the correct socket and ride to a muffler shop and ask them to hit it with an impact wrench.
Make sure it is in neutral so as not to stress the transmission with the impact.

A prevailing torque locking nut has the last few threads formed slightly different than the other threads. This causes it to get tight on the bolt threads once it is well started. They work very well as a countershaft nut and don't require a lot of torque. I just tighten it up to gute-n-snug with the 8" stamped wrench from the stock tool kit.

I wouldn't use my torque wrenches as breaker bars. Too easy to over stress them
Good info, thank you

Riding is out of the picture for now, but I'll see if I can rent an impact wrench from Home Depot. Or maybe get one of those hand impact wrench jobbies from Harbor Freight or Amazon. I don't have a torch convenient, but I think I'd get more use out of a hand impact wrench than an acetylene or propane torch.
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Old 10-31-2017, 01:17 AM   #43
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

I'll suggest you don't use a torque wrench to loosen fasteners.

Maybe put a screwdriver in the last tooth on the rear sprocket so when the wheel rotates the screwdriver jams the chain and stops rotation.

I usually put it in 5th gear (least amount of gear reduction available), get on the right side of the bike and lean over the seat. I apply the rear brake and have Big Mikey (long 1/2" drive breaker bar) pointed towards the rear of the bike and I pull up on the bar. Sometimes a firm and quick yank is needed to break that nut loose.

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Old 11-01-2017, 09:15 PM   #44
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

I got the front sprocket off, but I had to take the rear wheel off and wedge a screwdriver in the chain so it'd stay in place while I used an improvised 2-foot breaker bar. One of the rear brake pads was worn down to nothing and I'm imagining maybe it was doing a crappy job at holding the rear wheel in place.

Anyway, the countershaft seal looks really dry -- maybe too dry and it cracked? I expected to see tons of oil around it, instead it looks kind of dusty. This makes me think maybe something else is going on, but I don't know what a compromised countershaft seal typically looks like. I took a bunch of pictures:

https://imgur.com/a/Kpusj

I also tried wiggling the output shaft and it didn't move, but I also didn't pull the seal, so that's probably holding it in place. I already have the extra seal ready to install, so I may as well install it. When the countershaft seal is out, that's probably the right time to try and move the output shaft around?

Last edited by imac611; 11-01-2017 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 11-02-2017, 02:22 AM   #45
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

It's all dry. Not leaking at countershaft. A bit of leak at shift lever.

Nothing obvious but am hearing small clues to check out...

There is a large breather tube on top of the engine near the starter motor. It goes from top of crankcase up to the air cleaner box. Is that in place proper at both ends? Could easily be source of oil mess if disconnected one end or the other. It routes fumes from the crankcase into the airbox after the air filter so the carb takes fumes in to be burned up. Could be an oil mess in there on carb side of the air filter.

There is a small drain hose that connect to airbox and goes to a little bottle, plugged at bottom, (check and make sure is plugged), that hangs under the bike near bottom of shock. Is there liquid in that bottle? If so, gas or oil?

Said rear brake problem, the pad was shot. How much brake fluid it in the reservoir? Thinking a brake seal may have let go but it's not enough to make fluid mess large as you described.

Baby powder or talcum sticks to oil and shows it.
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Old 11-02-2017, 11:40 AM   #46
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

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Originally Posted by imac611 View Post
I got the front sprocket off, but I had to take the rear wheel off and wedge a screwdriver in the chain so it'd stay in place while I used an improvised 2-foot breaker bar. One of the rear brake pads was worn down to nothing and I'm imagining maybe it was doing a crappy job at holding the rear wheel in place.

Anyway, the countershaft seal looks really dry -- maybe too dry and it cracked? I expected to see tons of oil around it, instead it looks kind of dusty. This makes me think maybe something else is going on, but I don't know what a compromised countershaft seal typically looks like. I took a bunch of pictures:

https://imgur.com/a/Kpusj

I also tried wiggling the output shaft and it didn't move, but I also didn't pull the seal, so that's probably holding it in place. I already have the extra seal ready to install, so I may as well install it. When the countershaft seal is out, that's probably the right time to try and move the output shaft around?
If the output shaft seal is that dry, don't mess with it. It's not going to work better if you do, it's already working well.
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Old 11-02-2017, 12:33 PM   #47
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

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Originally Posted by WiRider View Post
It's all dry. Not leaking at countershaft. A bit of leak at shift lever.

Nothing obvious but am hearing small clues to check out...

There is a large breather tube on top of the engine near the starter motor. It goes from top of crankcase up to the air cleaner box. Is that in place proper at both ends? Could easily be source of oil mess if disconnected one end or the other. It routes fumes from the crankcase into the airbox after the air filter so the carb takes fumes in to be burned up. Could be an oil mess in there on carb side of the air filter.

There is a small drain hose that connect to airbox and goes to a little bottle, plugged at bottom, (check and make sure is plugged), that hangs under the bike near bottom of shock. Is there liquid in that bottle? If so, gas or oil?

Said rear brake problem, the pad was shot. How much brake fluid it in the reservoir? Thinking a brake seal may have let go but it's not enough to make fluid mess large as you described.

Baby powder or talcum sticks to oil and shows it.
Thanks for the recommendations! I'll take a look for a breather tube around the starter motor. I will say that I didn't see any motor oil in the air box on the filter side of the mesh screen.

I'll also nose around for a small reservoir hanging off the air box via a small tube and report back with what I find inside.

I highly doubt I have a brake fluid leak -- it's definitely motor oil, it's everywhere, and the sight glass supports that. I'll check the brake fluid level, but I'm doubtful that's related.

As far as baby powder goes, oil is basically all over the place at this point. The bike isn't running, it's been sitting for a few weeks now, but I can give it a dusting when I get it running again.

After I find the leak, I'll still need to re-assemble what I've taken apart; the cam covers are on, but I haven't tightened them up to specified torque. Do I need to invest in a 1/4" torque wrench to get to precisely 72 in-lbs? Can I safely ride with the valves out of spec to do my work later?
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Old 11-02-2017, 12:35 PM   #48
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

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Originally Posted by Eaglemike View Post
If the output shaft seal is that dry, don't mess with it. It's not going to work better if you do, it's already working well.
Okay, will do. Thank you.

I'm relieved it's not an obvious mess, but disappointed it's still a mystery where the oil's coming from. At least it doesn't seem like I have to do some kind of involved countershaft bearing switcheroo.
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Old 11-02-2017, 01:38 PM   #49
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

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Originally Posted by imac611 View Post
......................After I find the leak, I'll still need to re-assemble what I've taken apart; the cam covers are on, but I haven't tightened them up to specified torque. Do I need to invest in a 1/4" torque wrench to get to precisely 72 in-lbs? Can I safely ride with the valves out of spec to do my work later?
It seems to me that you may have found the leak in post #22. Large amounts of oil from the cam cover bolt rubber seal would spread over the front of the engine and get blown back. some of it hitting the exhaust pipe would produce the smoke you mentioned. Yes, I definitely think you should use an inch pound torque wrench on the cam cap bolts and the cam cover bolts.

You asked if you can ride it now and adjust the valve clearances latter. It depends on condition of the valve clearances. I have not seen that you measured those clearances while you had the cam cover off and I doubt that valve clearances are what caused the engine to die.

Normally valve clearances don't get too low suddenly and kill the engine. They may take 10 or 20 thousand miles to reduce from the max to the min specified clearance. When the get below the minimum clearance you will start to notice some changes in the way the engine runs and starts not just a sudden die while running.

Last edited by GoMotor; 11-02-2017 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 11-04-2017, 02:46 AM   #50
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

Thanks again WiRider -- after poking around a bit, I found a big oily mess around the hoses you described. I don't understand the purpose of the hoses coming out of the air cleaner box, but I probably should. At the bottom of the reservoir you described, I found a mixture of oil and water -- enough to go half way up the bottle. I looked in the factory service manuals and still don't understand what this hose is for, but you described it as there to route fumes? I saw a ton of oil all over this hose and what little was left of the one next to it.

It's unclear whether the oil came from these hoses or if they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time... but they're totally soaked in oil.

It looks like I totally botched the installation of the stock exhaust when I got it last year to replace the Two Brothers the previous owner put on. I've clearly burned a hole through a couple of the hoses and totally melted the right inside of the wheel well.

It looks like we're getting somewhere.

https://imgur.com/a/4BVv5
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Old 11-04-2017, 02:52 AM   #51
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

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Originally Posted by GoMotor View Post
It seems to me that you may have found the leak in post #22. Large amounts of oil from the cam cover bolt rubber seal would spread over the front of the engine and get blown back. some of it hitting the exhaust pipe would produce the smoke you mentioned. Yes, I definitely think you should use an inch pound torque wrench on the cam cap bolts and the cam cover bolts.

You asked if you can ride it now and adjust the valve clearances latter. It depends on condition of the valve clearances. I have not seen that you measured those clearances while you had the cam cover off and I doubt that valve clearances are what caused the engine to die.

Normally valve clearances don't get too low suddenly and kill the engine. They may take 10 or 20 thousand miles to reduce from the max to the min specified clearance. When the get below the minimum clearance you will start to notice some changes in the way the engine runs and starts not just a sudden die while running.
Right on, and sorry for not catching this recommendation when you made it earlier. I've got a torque wrench on its way now and will put everything to spec when the wrench arrives on Monday.

I found a whole ton of oil, melted plastic, and melted hoses around the air cleaner box tonight -- see https://imgur.com/a/4BVv5 -- and am not sure if the leak came from here or just landed here when it came from the top of the valve cover. I'm leaning toward the former, but I'll be the first to admit I have no idea what I'm doing. But I'm pretty sure I'm learning, which was part of the point of buying this bike.

Thanks again for the advice.
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Old 11-04-2017, 03:22 AM   #52
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

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Originally Posted by imac611 View Post
.........I found a whole ton of oil, melted plastic, and melted hoses around the air cleaner box tonight -- see https://imgur.com/a/4BVv5 -- and am not sure if the leak came from here or just landed here when it came from the top of the valve cover.............
It looks like a loose connection between the header pipe and the muffler melted some plastic. If it melted through into the clean air side of the air box, it will let dirt directly through the carburetor and into the engine. Fix it before running the engine much.

There is not much back by the air box to leak oil other than the oil on the filter. I would measure the valve clearances while you are in a position to do so, torque the cam cap bolts, torque the cam cover bolts, fix the exhaust, and fix the air box if it is melted. Then trouble shoot the no-start problem.

After you get it started you will be able to tell for sure where the oil is coming from.
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Old 11-04-2017, 04:01 AM   #53
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

Good find! Also Check the airbox CAREFULLY to see if hole(s) has been melted in it. Usually found on the front or bottom near the exhaust system. Common problem from small exhaust leaks and happens to a few folks, but you had a big leak so really need to check carefully. Serious problem for the engine if holes are after the air cleaner.

If you do find hole(s) the common repair is some thin aluminum sheet over the hole, some silicone rubber to make it a for sure airseal, and a couple sheet metal screws to hold it down permanently. Works for large holes as well as small.

That little bottle shows you what has been collecting in your airbox AFTER the air filter. Usually nothing, oil is normal, water not but might be some. I found gasoline once that's still a puzzle but there was a dirt nap involved. Just drain it and put the plug back in so doesn't suck dirt up and right into engine. Said oil and water in it. Oil is ok, water from too deep a crossing (or holes in airbox on rainy day). Should typically be empty and ALWAYS have the plug in it.

On bottom of airbox you will also find some very short hoses that have the end pinched off. Those let water drain out of the airbox and are before the air filter, but don't let water in much when crossing the river. Don't think needed but nice to know what they are and that they are in place.
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Last edited by WiRider; 11-04-2017 at 04:40 AM.
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Old 11-04-2017, 01:31 PM   #54
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

On a stock KLR gen1 there are three rubber tubes that drop down near the swing arm. It is hard to tell if yours are burnt in two.

One is from the bottom of the clean air side of the air box and should have a plug or small capped catch bottle. The plug/cap is important to keep dirt from being drawn up the tube and into the carburetor. There may or may not be a small filter in the nipple on the bottom of the air box, so it is best to make sure you have a capped/plugged tube there.

One is a pressure relief from the top left side of the carburetor and is not capped.

The other is from the original wet cell battery to drain any battery acid that may over flow. It should not be capped. If you now have a sealed AGM type battery, this tube is not needed.

The little short burnt oily stub of a tube looks like the drain from the dirty/filter side of the air box. A leak in it is not critical because the leak will have to pass through the filter. That short duck bill shaped drain will let water out of the air box, but restrict water from getting splashed in on wet roads or during creek crossings. It can be easily bought and replaced.

Last edited by GoMotor; 11-04-2017 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:29 PM   #55
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

I looked over the air cleaner box and didn't see any leaks on the box itself. It's possible there's a leak in the box that I didn't see -- I didn't remove the air cleaner box -- but nothing jumped out when I went over it closely with a flashlight. As far as the hoses go, I've got a hole in the burnt out stub on the back right and a hole near the top of the hose with the catch bottle on it. I'm not sure if leaks there matter much. It looks like there's a bit with a rubber nipple over it inside the air box, but I forgot to take a picture of it.

I noticed what look like some oil splashes on the mesh screen behind the air filter, as well as some black (oil?) spots on the filter itself.

I tightened the camshaft cap and valve cover bolts to spec, changed my oil and filter (everything looked clean, although granted the oil only had about 200 miles on it), and replaced the spark plug after taking a picture of the old one. I tried starting the bike with a freshly charged battery, had some luck after a few tries, but then the bike died after running for less than a minute.

I removed the carb to see if anything obvious was wrong in there -- nope. After reinstalling the carb I started the bike up again and it ran for about 20 seconds while I fiddled around with the choke and throttle to get it to run steadily. No luck, the engine stalled out after not too long. I looked at the spark plug afterwards and it was fouled and sooty.

https://imgur.com/a/EKh6B

I've attached a video of the bike running after I replaced the carb. I'm only about 50% sure that the choke cable was attached properly -- it didn't feel quite right, and that plastic nut the mechanism attaches with is a pain to work with, so maybe I bungled it?

https://youtu.be/4uhjPbKUNzc

When I looked over the bike after it ran briefly, I didn't see any obnoxious oil leaks, but I did see what looked like a little bit of oil on that front right valve cover bolt. I can't tell if that is just leftover from before, or if I've still got a leak up there.

At this point, I know the valve clearances are out of spec -- when I checked them, they had too much room (~0.030mm on each if I recall correctly) -- so maybe that's causing problems? I'm not sure where else to look.
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Old 11-08-2017, 12:22 AM   #56
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

No matter what the valve clearances, it it starts, it should run.

You open the carburetor, fooled with it and close it.

Then the bike starts and runs for a minute and dies and won't restart. The plug then has lots of black suit on it.

I wonder if the float needle and seat are leaking and flooding out the engine. Each time you drain the float bowl the engine starts and runs until it floods again. Check it out.

Last edited by GoMotor; 11-08-2017 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 11-08-2017, 01:24 AM   #57
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

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I wonder if the float needle and seat are leaking and flooding out the engine. Each time you drain the float bowl the engine starts and runs until it floods again. Check it out.
GoMotor is right. Carb float valve now suspect plus original symptom of "Oil" splattered all over the bike means take a sample of your crankcase oil and sniff for gas in oil. Would see oil inside of airbox too like you said you have. Going to have to test carb for proper float level AND vacuum petcock for leaking (or manual petcock left on). If petcock let gas flow when bike off, and float valve was stuck, gas can end up in crankcase oil.

Info ... That choke cable connector to the carb is delicate, causes running problems if just a TINY crack in it so be careful. There is a brass replacement.
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Last edited by WiRider; 11-08-2017 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 11-08-2017, 10:32 AM   #58
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

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Originally Posted by WiRider View Post
There is a brass replacement.

https://www.steadengineering.com/KLR6...RBCPB-0002.htm

or

https://www.steadengineering.com/KLR-...t-day-0001.htm

or

https://www.steadengineering.com/Cabl...-CCCK-0009.htm

or

https://www.arcticcatpartshouse.com/?...FQsfhgodoIQCVw

Cap (nut) part# 5507-025 $3.26



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Old 11-08-2017, 12:24 PM   #59
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

Yes. If you plan to fool with the carburetor much, the brass Choke Plunger Barre replacement is the very best way to go.

Last edited by GoMotor; 11-08-2017 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 11-14-2017, 09:56 PM   #60
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Default Re: Gen 1: Oil leak and engine dead

I figured I'd chime in with an update. Thanks for all the help guys.

I disassembled the carb using souperdoo's very informative "CVK40 Carb Overhaul" series on YouTube and soaked all the metal bits overnight in a carb bath. Float level looks within spec ("18.26mm" according to my digital calipers, but getting a precise reading seems impossible)

Upon reassembling, I learned I'm a dope and lost the washer and rubber gasket from the idle mixture screw. I'm pretty sure I had them and that I've lost them. Here's a pic I found of what I'm talking about:
https://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g...e/BillsCV2.jpg

I'm not particularly hopeful that the local hardware store will have these tiny bits, but even if they had some that fit, would it even be worth it? Or would they be so wonky that I should bite the bullet and spend $30 on the carb rebuild kit All Balls sells?
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