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Riding Technique Discuss riding technique, share riding secrets, or ask for tips


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Old 09-27-2016, 03:23 PM   #21
"Mitch"
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Default Re: Injuries and Deaths from Panic Braking

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Originally Posted by Tumbleweed View Post
The basic premise that KLR riders are inept and don't practice is flawed. I don't like the preachy nature of this thread or the gross generalizations being aplied. Life is complex. The majority of KLR riders are older and understand some degree risk management, preparation and due diligence. I doubt anyone coomes here to be lectured.
Now hold on Tumbleweed. I shared my opinion. You rebutted my opinion. We debated. But now you call me out as being preachy or lecturing? Read my posts and read yours. I'm truly sorry you don't like the tone of this thread, but I don't understand your disgust.

And while I agree most KLR riders probably are older and hopefully a tad wiser, I would still suggest that most don't practice like they should.....That is human nature. Most of us don't work out and eat like we should. Most don't spend enough quality time with wives and kids. etc. etc. I would suggest that when most have time to go ride, the last thing they feel like doing is panic drills in a parking lot.....and I would say again, I bet most don't do it. That doesn't make them bad or lazy....It's just my assumption of what actually happens. If you disagree with that assumption....No problem. Again, we can agree to disagree.

I say again....and mean it......All The Best!

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Old 09-27-2016, 06:06 PM   #22
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Default Re: Injuries and Deaths from Panic Braking

I've heard "experts" telling people not to use the back brake on pavement .....and I've heard "experts" telling people not to use the front brake in the dirt; both are wrong.....at least for a reasonably skilled and experienced rider. Perhaps a considered restriction for newbies, but not one I'm comfortable with.

I agree with whoever said most new riders are way better off with ABS though I don't like it myself.

Panic is a bad thing; the only way to combat panic and freezing up is with practice and experience until your reactions are second nature because it's true: you don't have time to think.


2 cents,
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Old 09-27-2016, 06:22 PM   #23
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Default Re: Injuries and Deaths from Panic Braking

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Originally Posted by "Mitch" View Post
~ Hard front braking on unpaved surfaces is dangerous.....But the vast majority of motorcycles, including the KLR, never or seldom see unpaved surfaces.
Mitch, I'm not arguing or picking on you; this was just the most convenient example of this particular thought to quote. Hard front braking offroad isn't dangerous if you know what you're doing......I've done it thousands of times along with every other offroad racer out there; it's not only not dangerous, in many situations it's absolutely critical.

If you (the general, not specific "you" ;-) ) are going to ride your KLR as a true dual sport which includes off pavement use, you need to practice how to properly brake in the dirt using BOTH brakes to their full potential when the situation requires it.

This topic reminds me of several instances where people have stated that the weak Gen1 KLR front brake was actually some kind of advantage offroad.....ummm, nope, not for me it isn't!

Built in ABS: a 1982 Honda XR with wet drum brakes!

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Old 09-27-2016, 07:12 PM   #24
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Default Re: Injuries and Deaths from Panic Braking

I did not call anyone out Mitch, however, respectfully, you have repeated your assumption about the klr riding populous and what they should be doing. The whole topic from the first post got under my skin Because making broad assumptions is a negative form of communication, especially here where we are supposed to be helping each other.

I have yet to see any decent Recent crash study that divides motorcyclists into sud-categories. The Squid that crashes the new GSXRR while leaving the dealership - with NO training is lumped into the group same as someone with 400,000 miles and 0 accidents. Combined with the Old new riders on 800+ lb brand new cruisers, again with Zero training, these two groups account for a LOT of the total mc stats, that is those that Don't involve alcohol.

Get rid of those three factors and the stats start looking a lot better for Trained, Sober, experienced riders that know how to operate their particular machine in a wide variety of conditions. It is this group that I would presume most KLR riders belong to.

I'll leave it at that and shut up.

TW
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Old 09-27-2016, 08:05 PM   #25
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Default Re: Injuries and Deaths from Panic Braking

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Originally Posted by Tumbleweed View Post
I did not call anyone out Mitch, however, respectfully, you have repeated your assumption about the klr riding populous and what they should be doing. The whole topic from the first post got under my skin Because making broad assumptions is a negative form of communication, especially here where we are supposed to be helping each other.

I have yet to see any decent Recent crash study that divides motorcyclists into sud-categories. The Squid that crashes the new GSXRR while leaving the dealership - with NO training is lumped into the group same as someone with 400,000 miles and 0 accidents. Combined with the Old new riders on 800+ lb brand new cruisers, again with Zero training, these two groups account for a LOT of the total mc stats, that is those that Don't involve alcohol.

Get rid of those three factors and the stats start looking a lot better for Trained, Sober, experienced riders that know how to operate their particular machine in a wide variety of conditions. It is this group that I would presume most KLR riders belong to.

I'll leave it at that and shut up.

TW
Thx TW. I appreciate that reply and some good follow up points. More to consider.

I assumed your comments were directed at me given how vocal I was on the subject. I shouldn't make that assumption.

It was not my intent to be dogmatic. I am still a novice and trying to learn all I can. I read, listen and ponder. Having read the articles I posted and others, their rationale made sense to me. I was too emphatic, and I apologize for that.

I enjoy this forum for both its tone and content. But I also enjoy a great debate. I am not easily offended and enjoy a passionate dialogic, but on a forum that can cause problems.

My apologies if I offended you or others.

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Old 09-27-2016, 09:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: Injuries and Deaths from Panic Braking

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I raced a little in WERA back in the 70's and then left that behind to go raise a family and start/grow a succession of start up companies. I raced a GS1000 that maybe made 90-something HP and weighed 500 lbs. A few years ago, I got the itch a few years ago to see how it might go to get back out to the track with a modern technology bike. I signed up for a CSS two day (level 1 & 2) camp at VIR in May of 2014. Two months before that, I bought a new S1000RR - the same bike they use at CSS now. That first camp lit the fuse again and I've since been to the level 3 & 4 camp at Barber (amazing bucket list place) and NJMP Thunderbolt for repeat L4 coaching. I've learned more that I didn't know that I didn't know than what I knew when I thought I was fast

I don't have enough time to write all the good things I have to say about the California Superbike School. They're one of the most professional organizations in any endeavor that I've ever experienced. State of the art instructional techniques using the latest brain research on how different people learn differently combined with a fleet of new S1000RR race bikes and best of all, coaches that are as great at teaching as they are at riding fast.
You attended well after I left, though, I only coached on the west coast. Glad you enjoyed the school. When I was coaching Keith was/is very dedicated to helping street riders and his lessons were specifically tailored to those types. He would catch a lot of grief from 'racers' and other schools as his teachings were counter to the fastest way around a track. He never cared about how fast students went only that they understood the principals and techniques.

I will say that he was contemplating adding a racer type school to the organization when I left...which he did do. Bottomline...Keith taught me a lot both on the track and off. Interesting person to say the least. Actually, quite a few interesting characters in his immediate staff...Koby being one of them. His mechanic at the time, can't recall his name, was one heck of a rider. He didn't look the part...short & fat but he was talented. He never raced professionally but could have.

I again started coaching some back in 2008 when I started a track day organization here in Az. After my bad get off/injury in 2010 I did nothing but coaching and enjoyed it greatly. But I've since added a new member of the family and that has taken priority.

Everyone can benefit from a day on the track. I've offered local DS riders an opportunity to join in at my track days by giving them (DS only) a dedicated group but I never could get enough folks to actually commit to coming out. Unfortunate...
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Old 09-27-2016, 10:10 PM   #27
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Default Re: Injuries and Deaths from Panic Braking

Good discussions by nature have some drama, it's all good. I too meant no offense.

The KLR is reportedly the best selling of the dual sports, but that is a tiny fraction of total motorcycle sales annually. You really have to want to own one and even then, many are sold after the honeymoon is over.

As for skills, most riders I've spoken with "get" it. They have their own way of improving thier riding. Lots of books, videos, and classes available - just a matter of desire really. The best of the seasoned riders seem to be the most engaged in exploring their ability and building skills. I've learned a lot about being calm and aware during my riding by reading the various writings by the Iron Butt Association and their members.

At the same time, I admit I seldom attempt to have a discussion with "Bikers", whom identify themselves to me by questioning why I have full gear on. seems there is little common ground. That's where forums are so nice in allowing riders with similar interests to chat. We don't need to agree. How boring would that be?

Would certainly be nice to have this type of conversation over a beer.

Someday perhaps.

TW
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Old 09-27-2016, 10:17 PM   #28
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Default Re: Injuries and Deaths from Panic Braking

It's all good here too

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Old 09-28-2016, 12:22 AM   #29
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Default Re: Injuries and Deaths from Panic Braking

I use both front and rear brake every time I stop. The effect of adding the rear brake in a hard stop is immediately felt and in my opinion using both brakes is vital. Off-road I use more rear brake than front, especially when maneuvering.

From here on out I am talking about on-pavement riding:

When you only apply the front brake, the forks compress which makes the front tire more effected by road imperfections. When you add in rear brake, the entire bike seems to crouch and become more stable. So not only do you add braking forces, but the suspension feels more relaxed and is able to handle additional stress or rider inputs. You only have so much contact friction in your front wheel to use and if you are using it all for braking then you don't have any left for steering inputs.

The only way to know how to use your brakes is to use your brakes. Like Chuck says, go out and do braking drills on a regular basis.

From my own experience I have made 3 real emergency stops since my I bought my KLR.

The first e-stop was with the stock 240 mm front brake rotor. I got caught not paying enough attention and decided to stop instead of blowing through a red light. I ended up stopping a car length into the intersection. Luckily there was nobody coming from the left so I didn't get hit. I was white knuckling it all the way to stopped and that was what convinced me I needed to upgrade my brakes.

The second e-stop was after upgrading the suspension and brakes. In this case, the light turned yellow with me in the indeterminate zone where I probably could have made it, but there was a kid edging into the intersection on my right and I feared he was going to blast off as soon as he got a green. I made a controlled stop in less distance than my first e-stop with only the sound of singing tires to indicate anything was happening. To my amazement, when I looked down, I only had one finger on the brake lever. An upgraded KLR front brake is acceptable to me.

The 3rd e-stop was in a driving rain. Complicating things, I was on knobby tires, the bike was heavily loaded from a camping trip and my steering bearings were loose (40 miles of washboards had loosened up the nut as I found after I got home). I started stopping in plenty of time (I thought) only to have everything go to hell during the stop. I locked up the brakes several times during the stop. I was able to modulate braking to regain control each time, and finally ended up coming to a stop with the bike at 90 degrees from the direction of travel. That was a lot more exciting than I hope to ever experience again. I was very grateful that I did not drop the bike. I was wearing ATTGAT so I doubt if I would have been injured, but it would have been a major pain to deal with all the crap on my bike in the rain.

That 3rd e-stop was the closest I have ever come to spinning out in a vehicle. I was sideways pointed to the left and to the right at portions of that stop. I am still amazed I made that stop successfully.
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Old 09-09-2017, 10:42 PM   #30
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Default Re: Injuries and Deaths from Panic Braking

Excellent discussion.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:31 AM   #31
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Default Re: Injuries and Deaths from Panic Braking

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Excellent discussion.
It really is!

About a year ago Chuck gave me one tip and it was practice panic braking. I do it all the time. I'm comfortable up to about 55mph. Anything over that I lose that comfort but I know the ability is there.

One other thing I once read here that I took as a lesson on preparedness was "when a driver turns left in front of you don't close your eyes and think happy thoughts." I like that one, I use it often.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:53 AM   #32
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Default Re: Injuries and Deaths from Panic Braking

Glad it helped and yes, I do the same braking drills monthly. Glad someone got/gets my sense of humor. I give similar but opposite advice with tough off road situations; I close my eyes and twist the throttle. I've always made it thru to the other side.
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:03 PM   #33
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Default Re: Injuries and Deaths from Panic Braking

At a class I went to a couple months ago we were taught to gradually ease up on the back brake as the bike's weight shifted forward to prevent a lockup.
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Old 09-13-2017, 08:45 AM   #34
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Default Re: Injuries and Deaths from Panic Braking

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Glad it helped and yes, I do the same braking drills monthly. Glad someone got/gets my sense of humor. I give similar but opposite advice with tough off road situations; I close my eyes and twist the throttle. I've always made it thru to the other side.
Closing eyes and pinning it is a very underrated riding technique

I got to practice a lot of these techniques riding about 500 miles of soft sand last week. The guys behind me on the intercom got tired of hearing me on the intercom say "eye's up and flap your wings." What I meant by that was when the trail got challenging (deep sand, whatever) it's important to keep your eyes way out in front of you and not looking down where the danger is lurking; and, to stay light on the bars I'll flap my elbows in the breeze to show that I'm very light on the bars. Whether panic braking or riding through the gnarly with the throttle open, give the bike some credit for knowing how to dance through it. It's the death grip on the bars and our unintended inputs that will put you on the ground most times you find yourself there.
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